Gentlemen,

Over the years the hair transplant industry has been rocked on it's ear by the contributions of the patients that have fed it. Patients taking dozens of photographs, building personal websites, and sharing personal testimony have sent a wake up call to clinics that do great work and those that do not so great work. This wake up call has helped to propel the standard of care to levels not seen in days past. I dare say the past five years have seen more improvement in patient care and results than the previous thirty years prior. Doctors have been held accountable for their abilities for all the public to see, whether they like it or not.

Website organizations like the Coalition and the IAHRS, where doctors are invited to answer patient questions, share their clinical results, and open their respective practice's for public scrutiny, have been the perfect vehicle to unite patients from all over the world. Without these sites, there would be no real central depository for us to band together and make our voices heard. Some clinics have embraced this, others have shunned it. Sure, there are fees involved to be officially recognized but these fees are readily disclosed and are necessary for the sites to be run full time. Fees aside, the work is what is judged as a common denominator for inclusion on lists of recommendation. Some will have differing opinions on who should be on these respective lists but for the most part they are a good thing to have as a starting point of reference. Both patients sharing results and organizations such as the Coalition and the IAHRS have helped to separate the good docs from those that cannot or will not step up to the challenge of improving patient care. Love 'em or hate 'em, these two "lists" have a lot of docs running into the shadows.

There are clinics that would have us believe that we as laypersons are not qualified to know what is good work and what is not. These clinics would have us believe that our dissatisfaction is due to our ignorance of the medical procedures that we have undergone and that our results that some can say are sub-par are due only to the fact that we expect too much. In addition, some doctors would have you believe that even though Pat, Spencer and Farrel are literally begging them to join their organizations they do not only because they do not wish to pay any "outrageous" fees thus explaining away their lack of participation in any forums. What they are not telling you is that they either applied and were turned down or were members at one time and got the boot.

Today, I was informed of a new website that serves to bypass the established lists of recommended physicians that we have all come to know and depend on. On the outside, it looks like any other hair loss website trying to grab it's share of your attention. However, once the shovel is pulled out we see what lies beneath.

www.hairlossdoctorlist.com

A simple whois search reveals the source...

Registrant:
Goertz, Brian

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Domain Name: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

Administrative Contact :
Goertz, Brian
wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.co m
ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447
Phone: 570-708-8780

Technical Contact :
Goertz, Brian
wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.co m
ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447
Phone: 570-708-8780

Record expires on 30-Nov-2009
Record created on 30-Nov-2006
Database last updated on 30-Nov-2006

After reviewing the guidelines for membership we have some interesting points.

Reasons to be a Member of Hair Loss Doctor List:

5. Truth in Advertising: Many are aware of the organizations that paint themselves as "patient advocacy sites" that will promote hair transplant surgeons for an unrealistic fee. Being part of an ethical informational organization will decrease your dependency on these organizations that prey upon your industry and ultimately improve the promotional integrity of the hair transplant industry.

What better truth in advertising is there than showing your great results and having patients post their experiences? What better truth than having independent organizations helping patients to match up with docs that deliver? What better truth is there than making your clinic transparent? The complaint above includes mention of memberhip fees to be included on lists yet they themselves also charge a fee... Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed.

6. Ethical Standards: Hair Loss Doctor List will maintain high ethical standards and will not tolerate unethical behavior in the Forum. For example blogging or posting by paid employees or independent contractors of a hair transplant physician/practice which is been prevalent on other sites and is highly unethical and will not be tolerated here.

I'd like to know what the difference is between posting by consultants and posting by doctors. This is saying that most of YOU, the participants in this and other forums, are actually employees in disguise. Why? Because you are passionate about your results and the clinic that gave them to you.

Here are a couple of the criteria listed for membership.

1.) Member must be a member in good standing of the ISHRS for a minimum of 3 years.

Why? What influence could this have?

2.) Must practice within the United States of America.

Now this one is interesting. The ISHRS includes membership that is international to a heavy degree yet these non-US clinics are excluded from membership in this organization. One must ask why.

In summary, what this site is doing is trying to bypass accountability by placing themselves (the doctor membership) in charge of what is considered to be acceptable work rather than allowing you the patient to make this judgment for yourself. I'm sorry but this site and a few other "independent" sites dominated by YOU the patients are what has changed the industry undoubtedly for the better and are the ONLY reason why I, as a hair transplant repair patient first and foremost, was able to repair the pluggy, unsightly mini-grafts from years ago. It was because of CONSULTANT, not because of what a doctor told me because it was a doctor that got me into hair loss trouble to begin with.

Understand that this does not affect me in a professional manner. It does affect me in a personal manner and I feel it is important for you guys to know what some doctors really think about being transparent to you, the public.

__________________
I am employed by Hasson & Wong as a patient educator. My opinions are my own and might not be that of Dr. Hasson & Dr. Wong.

Hasson & Wong-The More You Look The Better We Look.

Dr. Hasson and Dr. Wong are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians

Gentlemen,

Over the years the hair transplant industry has been rocked on it's ear by the contributions of the patients that have fed it. Patients taking dozens of photographs, building personal websites, and sharing personal testimony have sent a wake up call to clinics that do great work and those that do not so great work. This wake up call has helped to propel the standard of care to levels not seen in days past. I dare say the past five years have seen more improvement in patient care and results than the previous thirty years prior. Doctors have been held accountable for their abilities for all the public to see, whether they like it or not.

Website organizations like the Coalition and the IAHRS, where doctors are invited to answer patient questions, share their clinical results, and open their respective practice's for public scrutiny, have been the perfect vehicle to unite patients from all over the world. Without these sites, there would be no real central depository for us to band together and make our voices heard. Some clinics have embraced this, others have shunned it. Sure, there are fees involved to be officially recognized but these fees are readily disclosed and are necessary for the sites to be run full time. Fees aside, the work is what is judged as a common denominator for inclusion on lists of recommendation. Some will have differing opinions on who should be on these respective lists but for the most part they are a good thing to have as a starting point of reference. Both patients sharing results and organizations such as the Coalition and the IAHRS have helped to separate the good docs from those that cannot or will not step up to the challenge of improving patient care. Love 'em or hate 'em, these two "lists" have a lot of docs running into the shadows.

There are clinics that would have us believe that we as laypersons are not qualified to know what is good work and what is not. These clinics would have us believe that our dissatisfaction is due to our ignorance of the medical procedures that we have undergone and that our results that some can say are sub-par are due only to the fact that we expect too much. In addition, some doctors would have you believe that even though Pat, Spencer and Farrel are literally begging them to join their organizations they do not only because they do not wish to pay any "outrageous" fees thus explaining away their lack of participation in any forums. What they are not telling you is that they either applied and were turned down or were members at one time and got the boot.

Today, I was informed of a new website that serves to bypass the established lists of recommended physicians that we have all come to know and depend on. On the outside, it looks like any other hair loss website trying to grab it's share of your attention. However, once the shovel is pulled out we see what lies beneath.

www.hairlossdoctorlist.com

A simple whois search reveals the source...

Registrant:
Goertz, Brian

ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447

Domain Name: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM

Administrative Contact :
Goertz, Brian
wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.co m
ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447
Phone: 570-708-8780

Technical Contact :
Goertz, Brian
wf3sf4he2zh@networksolutionsprivateregistration.co m
ATTN: HAIRLOSSDOCTORLIST.COM
c/o Network Solutions
P.O. Box 447
Herndon, VA 20172-0447
Phone: 570-708-8780

Record expires on 30-Nov-2009
Record created on 30-Nov-2006
Database last updated on 30-Nov-2006

After reviewing the guidelines for membership we have some interesting points.

Reasons to be a Member of Hair Loss Doctor List:

5. Truth in Advertising: Many are aware of the organizations that paint themselves as "patient advocacy sites" that will promote hair transplant surgeons for an unrealistic fee. Being part of an ethical informational organization will decrease your dependency on these organizations that prey upon your industry and ultimately improve the promotional integrity of the hair transplant industry.

What better truth in advertising is there than showing your great results and having patients post their experiences? What better truth than having independent organizations helping patients to match up with docs that deliver? What better truth is there than making your clinic transparent? The complaint above includes mention of memberhip fees to be included on lists yet they themselves also charge a fee... Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed.

6. Ethical Standards: Hair Loss Doctor List will maintain high ethical standards and will not tolerate unethical behavior in the Forum. For example blogging or posting by paid employees or independent contractors of a hair transplant physician/practice which is been prevalent on other sites and is highly unethical and will not be tolerated here.

I'd like to know what the difference is between posting by consultants and posting by doctors. This is saying that most of YOU, the participants in this and other forums, are actually employees in disguise. Why? Because you are passionate about your results and the clinic that gave them to you.

Here are a couple of the criteria listed for membership.

1.) Member must be a member in good standing of the ISHRS for a minimum of 3 years.

Why? What influence could this have?

2.) Must practice within the United States of America.

Now this one is interesting. The ISHRS includes membership that is international to a heavy degree yet these non-US clinics are excluded from membership in this organization. One must ask why.

In summary, what this site is doing is trying to bypass accountability by placing themselves (the doctor membership) in charge of what is considered to be acceptable work rather than allowing you the patient to make this judgment for yourself. I'm sorry but this site and a few other "independent" sites dominated by YOU the patients are what has changed the industry undoubtedly for the better and are the ONLY reason why I, as a hair transplant repair patient first and foremost, was able to repair the pluggy, unsightly mini-grafts from years ago. It was because of CONSULTANT, not because of what a doctor told me because it was a doctor that got me into hair loss trouble to begin with.

Understand that this does not affect me in a professional manner. It does affect me in a personal manner and I feel it is important for you guys to know what some doctors really think about being transparent to you, the public.

__________________
I am employed by Hasson & Wong as a patient educator. My opinions are my own and might not be that of Dr. Hasson & Dr. Wong.

Hasson & Wong-The More You Look The Better We Look.

Dr. Hasson and Dr. Wong are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians

Wow Joe,

What an awesome and informative post.

I agree that membershipo such as the Coalition and the IAHRS that are PATIENT driven work for the good of everyone....primarily the patient (which is the point). Of course, in order to keep these communities running, the doctors pay a fee into these membershipos and there is certainly nothing wrong with that. These communities could NOT exist without funding, after all.

And as you say...just because these communities collect funding, does NOT mean that they are banging the door down of every clinic in the world to join. In fact...it's quite the opposite. Some clinics have applied for membership and have been rejected because they have not met the higher standards that these memberships call for. Sadly...these clinics will lie about it and state that they just didn't want to pay the fee, but that they are asked regularly to join. Their lies are highly unethical. Unfortunately, uninformed patients may just buy it.

These memberships, therefore, end up promoting the elite physicians and exposing the hack jobs and unexperienced as patients share their real life experiences. That's EXACTLY how it should be. The word "promotion" here is NOT a bad thing as sometimes this word has a negative connotation. But patient excitement about their results, sharing their experiences and pictures become undisputable. As a result, these public postings draw more people to these clinics. Isn't this a good thing? Absolutely. The whole point of these communities is to educate fellow hair loss sufferers who are seeking REAL answers and assist them in making decisions that is BEST for them. If hair transplantation is an option...wouldn't we want to see these people go to the best? Absolutely! Would anyone out of good conscious direct a perspective patient to a doctor who has done sub-par work? I would certainly hope NOT!

In this day and age...there is no excuse for doctors who do sub-par work, and I believe strongly, that doctor's who are using older technology and leaving people with a pluggy unnatural look should lose their medical license.

I certainly understand how this impacts you personally and not professionally...I have the same passion you have...to advocate patient rights - seeing patients get the best result possible.

I will certainly have to poke around this hairlossdoctrolist site when I have a chance.

Thanks for the heads up Joe. You are a fountain of information . Keep up the good work.

Bill

__________________
Managing Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network, the Hair Loss Learning Center, the Hair Loss Q&A Blog and the Hair Loss Forum and Social Community

View our hair loss articles on EZineArticles.com

Follow us on Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Subscribe to our Newsletters | How We Recommend Physicians

-----

To learn about how I restored my hair, view my my hair loss website.

Remember, true beauty radiates from within, not from the skin.

I am not a medical professional and my words should not be taken as medical advice. All opinions and views shared are my own.

Joe and Bill - Right on!

The hypocrisy of physicians garnering patients from this online community while supporting a physician based website that denounces the right of patients to hold them accountable is deplorable in my opinion.

Before communities like this existed patients had no recourse, legal or otherwise, if and when they got poor results. But today patients have the resources available to be empowered.

Today the educated patient is in the driver's seat and demanding and getting the very best work possible. On this community physicians need to walk the talk to earn the respect and business of patients.

This new "old boys club" website is yet another reactionary attempt by certain physicians to take patients out of the drivers seat and put them back in the back seat for the ride. They'd prefer the good old days when patients could not hold them accountable and where the information flowed from the "expert" M.D. down to the lay patient.

I have been attacked and sued many times over the years by hair transplant physicians who hate the existence of this community and what it stands for. Yet this community has not only survived these attacks but thrived. Why? Because it empowers the person who really matters most - the patient.

Many of the best physicians and clinics have had the wisdom to understand that they do not need to fear open and free discussions by patients and potential patients. In fact, those whose end results do hold up under close examination earn a steady stream of educated patients and one Hell of a lot of money. Other physicians continue to see patient forums as a threat to their industry/profession.

So I ask the members of this community - should we continue recommending physicians on this community who support a website that has contempt for this forum and the right of patients to freely share their experiences and opinions?

In my opinion, such hypocrisy is unacceptable and must not be allowed to stand. I think it's time to find out where physicians really stand.

The membership standards for the Coalition make it clear that physicians are expected to operate in a transparent and accountable manner (see below excerpt from the Coalition "Membership Standards" page).

Coalition Standards - Section - Physician Accountability

"Membership in the Coalition requires members to maintain a high degree of patient satisfaction. Members care for their patients knowing that their patients are free to post their experiences on the popular Hair Restoration Discussion Forum.

On this open forum patients are free to critique physicians and to hold them accountable for their actions. This forum is run and moderated by hair restoration patients.

In such a transparent environment our members are held publicly accountable for their actions and results. Members who fail to meet the high technical and ethical membership standards set by the Coalition are removed from the group.

However, we ask that patients first give their physician the opportunity to satisfy their concerns privately before posting any public criticisms on the discussion forum.

If the issue is not resolved to the patient's satisfaction they are encouraged to contact the Coalition by email at service@HairLossLearningCenter.org

Member clinics also agree to open their clinics up to inspection. Many of these inspections have been reported on the Hair Restoration Discussion Forum. View some of these clinic visits."

This is our contract with the doctors we promote on this community. In return for our business we require excellent results and accountability.

Shouldn't we all expect them to honor it?

P.S. If you'd like to see an example of one of Dr. Goertz's patients who posted his immediate post ops on this forum, click here. After viewing this photo I expect you will understand why Dr. Goertz is not recommended on this community.

You may also gain an understanding as to why Dr. Goertz deplores this forum and has undertaken publishing a site that is openly contemptuous of this forum and others (i.e. If you can't join them beat them.)

__________________
Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters!

My Hair Loss Blog

View some of the Leading Hair Transplant Clinics that I have visited.

Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here.

Follow our Community on Twitter.

Since Dr. Goertz intends to run a forum that is free from the terrible abuses that plague this forum I paid his forum a visit.

The forum looked very lonely so I decided to post the following:

Subject - Photo of a Dr. Goertz patient

Welcome to the world of hosting a discussion forum.

As a forum moderator you will soon have to decide whether you are going to run a truly open forum or a censored forum that deletes posts or posters who present information that you are not comfortable with.

For example, the photo in the below link is of a patient of Dr. Goertz's. It was posted by one of his patients on a respected hair transplant discussion forum. Will you delete it and this post because it demonstrates a very invasive surgery that resulted in coblestoning and sparse growth?

Or can you deal in reality and reply to it? I expect you will soon be pressing the delete button. But please, prove me wrong.

Link to patient's immediate post op photo http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=displayal...eshow&x_startwith=19

Best wishes to you in running a forum that is free from the inconvenient truths that visit all forums.

Pat Hennessey, Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network.com

If you'd like to visit this topic visit http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

P.S. If you hurry you may be able to reply before they delete the post and my posting account.

__________________
Never Forget - It's what radiates from within, not from your skin, that really matters!

My Hair Loss Blog

View some of the Leading Hair Transplant Clinics that I have visited.

Sharing is what keeps this community vital. Please join in. To learn how I restored my hair and started this community, click here.

Follow our Community on Twitter.

I cannot be the only one that is a little disappointed that a quality doctor like Dr. Limmer woudl be involved in such a site. I would suggest he leave and never return. Some publicity you just don't need.

Here's the thing.. Given that this is a very "real" community and is probably one of the most accessable resources on the Internet, as far as comments, suggestions, commendations etc. goes, I see little, if any, benefit from this new site.

This - and a handfull of others - site has real influence over where potential patients go for treatment, or simply get some good advice. I have seen many sites pop up to try and emulate what the Hair Transplant Network (and the Coalition) has succeeded in doing - empowering and educating potential patients.

Some of them have been blatent replicas, others have loosely disguised themselves as psuedo "membership clubs" - none of them have really embraced the community as has this site and it's affiliated sites.

Not many of the members know me, some do - quite well - and I have been involved with the creating of Pat's sites since 2001, when it was really a showcase of how pleased (that's putting it mildly) he was with his hair transplant by Dr. Ron Shapiro. I won't bore you with the details of the progression, but what exists today is something that Pat is hugely proud of and I also have a sense of "ownership" when I see how many people have actively participated in the "family" of sites that know exist.

There may be some members of this "family" that have choosen to belong to this new site, however, they are very much still part of things here and it is really time that will tell how much influence the "hair loss doctors list" will have in this field.

I say let them stay on here and not put pressure on them. I think that they will very soon see that they will enjoy far greater results by being part of THIS family than by joining some other.

Interestingly, Dr Goertz was a member of the Hair Transplant Network some time back, but have no recollection as to why he no longer is a member, must be something that someone said at some stage.

Enjoy what you have for as long as you can.

Hans

__________________
Hans

Webmaster - Media Visions Inc.
www.hairtransplantnetwork.com | www.hairlosslearningcenter.org | www.regrowhair.com
www.hairrestorationnetwork.com | www.hairsurgeons.com

Here goes some paranoid thinking.

Goertz is in reasonable geographic proximity of H & W. No Canadian doctors are permitted on the new site.

Is the H & W quality killing Goertz's business and is this his attempt at retaliation?

Bayer

I registered on the site and I plan to engage in discourse there.

I know EXACTLY why Dr. Goertz is no longer a member here.

There are a couple of very well respected HT docs that are sponsoring this site, namely. Dr. Cooley, Dr. Limmer, Dr. Harris and Dr. Nusbaum.

What is confusing to me is all of the effort that is being put into this site, when the PERFECT vehicle for displaying their work is right here on the HTN?

My impression of this site is docs who do not wish to enter the internet realm and be exposed for "average/good" work when other docs are much better, unless it is in a very controlled, safe environment. (aside from the 4 docs I mentioned)

For those who think I am rude, overly-passionate, and too aggressive at times.... this is the reason.

Some docs want to hide behind paperwork and do not wish to be exposed if something goes wrong, poor growth, etc....

Kudos to the Docs who take on the challenge of the internet and possess the strength of character to continually push forward and put the PATIENT first.

We shall see
J

ps. Any bets on how long until my membership is revoked---- I want in

__________________
Go Cubs!

6721 transplanted grafts
13,906 hairs
Performed by Dr. Ron Shapiro

Dr. Ron Shapiro and Dr. Paul Shapiro are members of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians.

Jotronic (and others)-

Thanks so much for disclosing this information. If Dr. Goertz is producing the kind of work that was shown in the pic Pat posted, I can understand why he needs to "self-promote".

I am disappointed in seeing that some of our own Coalition Surgeons are opting to be represented by this site. Why would they have interest in joining it? I'm not sure I would take the stance that since they've opted to endorse the other site that they should not be recommended here. I believe that decision should solely be based on their character and quality of work as shown and determined by their former patients with results displayed here and experiences shared.

I did join the other site and post a few comments............we'll see if I get the axe.

The whole idea is kind of like a Car Dealer writing a review of their own product then posting it in Consumer Reports as gospel.

__________________
Hairbank

1st HT 1-18-05 - 1200 FUT's
2nd HT 2-15-06 - 3886 FUT's Dr. Wong
3rd HT 4-24-08 - 2415 FUT's Dr. Wong

GRAND TOTAL: 7501 GRAFTS

current regimen: 1.25mg finasteride every other day

My Hair Loss Weblog

Disclaimer: I'm not a Doctor (and have never played one on TV ) and have no medical training. Any information I share here is in an effort to help those who don't like hair loss.